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		<title>Comments for page &quot;Fighting Efficiency&quot;</title>
		<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency</link>
		<description>Posts in the discussion thread &quot;Fighting Efficiency&quot;</description>
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-2315897</guid>
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				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-2315897</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2015 14:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Hugo</wikidot:authorName>								<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Actually it's easy to know if your pictures are good and your music is bad. Just look at the people faces, the people number when doing a recital or art show, etc.</p> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-2175209</guid>
				<title>(no title)</title>
				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-2175209</link>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2014 04:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>martin_sustrik</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>939</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Yes, the welfare system is an imperfect implementation of basic income.</p> <p>As for me, I believe we'll have to resort to basic income sooner or later. At least, I haven't heard anyone proposing an alternative solution &#8212; well, unless you consider bullshit jobs (<a href="http://250bpm.com/blog:44">http://250bpm.com/blog:44</a>) to be a solution.</p> <p>As for 99% doing nothing, it's unlikely IMO. When you look at actual people, you'll find out that it's pretty hard to make them do nothing. You have to lock them up in a jail or something. And event there they will be doing something, I guess. Doing nothing contradicts our psychological (or, to put the emphasis on the inborn component of it, etological) wiring.</p> <p>So, I think, we'll just have to think of a way of steering this surplus activity in desirable direction by non-monetary means.</p> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-2174235</guid>
				<title>(no title)</title>
				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-2174235</link>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2014 18:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Alex Evt</wikidot:authorName>								<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Well, there is another way to cope with the problem, and just this way is now used by 'The Golden Billion' countries: since the Great Depression the capitalists know that if too many people lose their buying power, the sellers very soon lose their buying power too, and in no time the wave goes up to the richest ones.</p> <p>So they decided to part with some of their revenues and pass it to the Government for re-distribution to as many poor people as possible, as a welfare. The poor people keep the ability to buy (cheap and little in quantities, but there are many of them), so those who sell to them gather their income and keep their ability to buy more costly things… and so on.</p> <p>The new problem is, that the size of the population grows, and the part of it that produces things shrinks. To keep the pace the capitalists have to have more revenues, and pass to the Government more.</p> <p>What will be in the end? 1% of the population working, creating very big revenues to their bosses, and the bosses paying enormous taxes to support 99% of the population having nothing at all to do&#8230;</p> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-1973168</guid>
				<title>(no title)</title>
				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-1973168</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 20 Feb 2014 22:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>John Nilsson</wikidot:authorName>								<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Another argument to consider is that BI can be funded without the distortion of taxation. In fact we might be able to have both BI and eliminate taxes entirely.</p> <p>What you do (according to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism">Georgists</a>) is that you tax land value and basically remove all other forms of taxation.</p> <p>Besides not distorting ordinary transactions it also has the benefit of predetermining the total wealth available for BI which I believe should install a natural balancing force into the market. If too many people does the wrong thing the total wealth sinks and so should land rents, at some point the BI will simply be to low to be acceptable again.</p> <p>You could also argue that BI from land value is just the morally correct thing to do if land is seen as fundamentally a commons, but with arrangements of private ownership layered on top for efficiency. See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolibertarianism">Geolibertarianism</a>. In this view it can be argued that land value taxation isn't a tax at all, just a proper rent contract between the land owner and the commons.</p> <p>In my mind there is also the potential to solve the climate crisis this way. What is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_tax_reform">Ecotaxing</a> if not compensating the commons?</p> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-1918844</guid>
				<title>Re: How do you think people will stay wealthy enough just doing what they want?</title>
				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-1918844</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 19 Dec 2013 22:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>crocket</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>1794068</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <ul> <li>Preface<br /> <br /> I must have been misleading about how I want to make money and enjoy hobby. With or without basic income, I plan to make money mostly by writing programs and to enjoy drawing pictures and composing songs as hobbies. So I start with hobbies.<br /> <br /></li> <li>Hobbies are more about consumption than about production.<br /> <br /> When people draw pictures and write songs for fun, people generally don't care much about how badly others want their talents in hobbies. It's because hobbies are more about consumption of time/material than about production.<br /> <br /> In other words, most people generally pay money to enjoy hobbies. However, if other people praise them for their drawing talent, they will be gratified and do more drawing than writing songs, and vice versa. If they get good enough to be paid for one of their hobbies, they might think about making money from it.<br /> <br /></li> <li>Non-monetary wealth<br /> <br /> There exist non-monetary wealths. Monetary currencies are preferred forms of wealth because they are easily convertible and fungible. Although non-monetary wealths are also valuable, they are generally not easily convertible to other forms of wealth.<br /> <br /> <ol> <li>social currency<br /> <br /> According to pieter hintjen's recent book, &quot;Culture and Empire&quot;, the US government spent millions of dollars to make people click &quot;like&quot; in facebook. Social currency exists. Hobbyist artists are gratified and release more artworks if others click &quot;like&quot; or praise them(social currency). That process also generates reputation(social currency) which can be converted into other personal properties later. Amazon book reviews are a form of social currency, too. So, social currency can incentivize people to do more of something. However, it takes time and careful planning to convert social currency into other forms of wealth(food, house, etc). Thus, if people put above-board efforts into earning social currency for a long time(half a year?), they'll get burned out. Basic income changes this dynamics, which will be described below.<br /> <br /></li> <li>Skills<br /> <br /> For example, I and you have skills as programmers. Skills are non-monetary wealth that can be converted to monetary wealth easily if other people want those skills.<br /> <br /></li> <li>Body(Health and beauty)<br /> <br /> Health is a form of wealth. Japanese have the longest expected lifespan, and japanese people are considred to be wealthy not just because of their per-capita GDP but also due to their life expectancy. In Congo-Kinshasa, the life expectancy is about 50 years. Beautiful people monetize their beauty in markets.<br /> <br /></li> <li>Human coin<br /> <br /> According to &quot;Culture and Empire&quot;, when money didn't exist, there wasn't a barter economy. If I give you milk when you starve, you owe me. You repay the debt by giving me eggs when I starve later. Ledgers of human coins are maintained in human minds, so human coin economy doesn't scale. Monetary currencies solve scaling problem and remove human coins.<br /> <br /></li> </ol> </li> <li>How I guess you think BI(basic income) blocks market information flow.<br /> <br /> I guess you have one of two possibilities below in mind, and I have arguments for them.<br /> <br /> <ol> <li>basic income increases tax too much that most of people's earnings go to basic income, distorting markets.<br /> <br /> Brazil adopted basic income years ago, and they are not heavily taxed so far. Switzerland is voting for unconditional basic income of 2800$/month for every adult employed or unemployed. I don't know about switzerland yet. Even, south korea, my country, can implement BI if the government cuts out wasteful programs(S.Korea has many) and consolidates lots of welfare programs into BI.<br /> <br /></li> <li>BI incentivizes people to ignore market signals because people can subsist without jobs anyway.<br /> <br /> I guess it's possible to configure BI to incentivize people to ignore market signals. However, I think it generally makes people more sensitive to market signals. I'm going to explain my rationale below step by step.<br /> <br /></li> </ol> </li> <li>Psychological effects of basic income<br /> <br /> My father arranged a private basic income system for me via some financial vehicles, so I know what BI does to mind. Almost nobody is satisfied with basic income that only covers the most basic needs(house rent, food, clothing, internet), and they need to trade in markets to get what they want. BI just guarantees that people still have comfortable low class life if they lose a job. This private BI urges me to drop my job, endure months/years-long unpaid learning, build reputation, and make living as a free agent like you do, and I'm actually going to do it. In other words, BI makes it bearable for people to quit crappy jobs and live on ramen noodles for years in rent houses until they get a decent job, become a well-paid freelancer, or one of their tablet games raises them to a middle class/upper middle class life.<br /> <br /> People will be inclined to refuse crappy jobs, and this leads to some economic effects.<br /> <br /></li> <li>Economic effects of basic income<br /> <br /> If basic income taxes people too much, it'll distort markets. If it doesn't tax much, private sectors will always have abundance of money to trade with or without basic income. And I think many governments can implement BI while increasing tax only a little by cutting out useless programs and consolidating lots of &quot;conditional&quot; welfare programs into &quot;unconditional&quot; BI. Also, unconditional BI is simpler to maintain and think about than lots of &quot;conditional&quot; welfare programs.<br /> <br /> Central authorities hire managers, and managers hide market signals. Workers actually feel warmth in the shielded core and are happy without market signals. Since workers don't know how market actually values their labor, they don't know if they are compensated fairly or unfairly. Those workers without market signals don't know what societies need in the long term. However, managers don't know what societies need or want in the long term, either. So centralized corporations tend to make irrelevent products.<br /> <br /> Since people with BI are more inclined to refuse crappy jobs than without BI, it encourages people to leave established companies. Many more people will endure months/years-long unpaid learning and become freelancers or join small startups. Some people will opt to build other non-monetary wealths for months/years, and they may or may not convert non-monetary wealths into other personal properties(house, car, food, etc) later. It means basic income favors decentralization. If workers are inclined to become freelancers, join startups, or join open-allocation shops(github, valve, &#8230;), they'll become much more sensitive to market signals. Even if they choose to build non-monetary wealths mainly, they are not shielded from market signals as long as they communicate with other people. Managers would do a much better job at shielding market signals.</li> </ul> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-1918510</guid>
				<title>Re: How do you think people will stay wealthy enough just doing what they want?</title>
				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-1918510</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>martin_sustrik</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>939</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>What if people are mad for your pictures, but don't give a shit about your music? What's the mechanism to let you know that you should focus on the former and let the latter be?</p> <p>In traditional economy you are guided by prices.</p> <p>In economy based on basic income there's no such mechanism.</p> <p>Maybe producers should actively search for feedback as a way to improve their credit (you get more credit for nice pictures than for sucky music). Would that be strong enough incentive to drive the effort in the right direction? Or should it be enforced by voluntary redistribution (donations)? In the latter case, wouldn't it mean that those working in scarcity-based sectors of the economy would have more say than others?</p> <p>In fact, we don't know. We don't even have a way to reason about such things. What's missing IMO is a generalised economical theory that would take non-monetary aspect into consideration rather than conveniently waving if off as &quot;externalities&quot;.</p> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-1918442</guid>
				<title>How do you think people will stay wealthy enough just doing what they want?</title>
				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-1918442</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 19 Dec 2013 10:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>crocket</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>1794068</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>For example, I want to draw lots of pictures, write a lot of programs, and write songs even if those activities don't pay my bills. And those activities may actually not pay the bills after all. What about my medical care? This means the reality is a tough one now. It drives people desperate and makes them take crappy jobs which make humanity poor.</p> <p>If basic income is low enough but still enough for basic needs, it wouldn't hinder market information flow much. Plus, the current tough reality drives people to join established companies, which strengthens centralization, oligopoly, and eventually monopoly. Oligopoly and monopoly shield market information very well.<br /> Basic income incentivizes people to become free agents and join startups, and this encourages formation of free market and thus free market information flow.<br /> Low-enough basic income would be a nice compromise.</p> <p>Or I might be wrong, and basic income would just block market signals, making everyone poorer.</p> <p>In the end, either basic income or other mechanisms should come in to rescue us from life enervating forces(Those boring and mediocre 9-5 brick and mortar office jobs, sacrifice of hobby lives, having to endure subordinate conditions, etc)</p> <p>NPE(non profit entity) jobs that you mentioned may turn out worse than our traditional jobs, and a global market state of free agents(as opposed to a global welfare state of high class elites, which is closer to hobby economy e.g., linux and clojure) sounds better in my mind.</p> <p>What do you think will rescue us?</p> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-1918415</guid>
				<title>Re: The future would be a syncretic mix.</title>
				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-1918415</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 19 Dec 2013 09:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>martin_sustrik</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>939</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>When I meant was not really about forcing slackers to work, rather about communicating the information about what people want to those that produce stuff.</p> <p>Basic income doesn't provide that imformation flow.</p> <p>However, judging on you &quot;expensive extras&quot; comment, I guess we are on the same line here, i.e. you have to work on something that is actually wanted to get the extras.</p> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-1918393</guid>
				<title>The future would be a syncretic mix.</title>
				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-1918393</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>crocket</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>1794068</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Most people are inclined to work even if they don't have to(For example, linux and wikipedia). Non-scarcity economies can grow very large(Again, linux). About 10% of the populations are professional slackers, and they already don't work or work little for meager salaries.</p> <p>My guess is that basic income will cover basic needs(house, clothing, food, internet, &#8230;) and people will work on interesting things to obtain expensive &quot;material/non-material&quot; stuff(a jet engine, ticket to the moon, social status, knowledge, quality time, etc, &#8230;). Then, basic income will basically just remove neccecity for &quot;subordinate&quot; jobs but encourage people to work as free agents or in small companies doing interesting things together without managerial interventions.</p> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-1918383</guid>
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				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-1918383</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>martin_sustrik</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>939</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>The advantage of basic income is that it's easy to implement even in short term. The disadvantage is that it's a rigid and unflexible. It lacks the feature of traditional markets where the resources are automagically redirected to where they are actually needed.</p> <p>My feeling is that with conspicious spending gradually losing it's ability to affect societal status, we'll evolve some way to trade (in a very broad sense) money for status that would actually help to fund non-profit (better term: non-scarcity-based) sectors of the economy.</p> <p>If so, you won't get money for sitting at home, watching TV, rather for doing something that is perceived to be &quot;useful&quot;.</p> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-1918378</guid>
				<title>Another explanation for prevalence of overwork in spite of automation.</title>
				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-1918378</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>crocket</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>1794068</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Most corporations are &quot;closed-allocation&quot; shops.<br /> In closed-allocation shops, trust in any employee can be dropped to zero by people having more credibility(managers or manager's pet worker). If an employee's credibility is low, others simply don't trust him with intellectually demanding tasks or with important tasks.</p> <p>Automation is an intellectually demanding task and is more expensive than manual labor initially. Thus, if managers don't trust workers much, they don't let workers automate in the first place.</p> <p>In open-allocation shops like github and valve, people get to work on any existing projects they like without managerial intervention. So, they are much more likely to automate no matter the initial cost.</p> 
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				<guid>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417#post-1918374</guid>
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				<link>http://250bpm.com/forum/t-750417/fighting-efficiency#post-1918374</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>crocket</wikidot:authorName>								<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Let me borrow phrases from Michael O. Church.</p> <p>Basic income is the way to go for now.</p> <p>Since automation deprives people of power as producer, they need some other kidns of power. Basic income gives power as consumer to people. If they have basic power as consumers, people will be much more likely to refuse crappy jobs, which is terrific.</p> <p>As time goes, more of easy tasks are automated, and humans are left with intellectually difficult tasks, so we will need to learn more to have jobs. This means, after decades, people will have to drop jobs from time to time, learn for months/years at home, and get another job. This process leaves most people jobless, and eventually, 0~10% of humanity will be &quot;fully&quot; employed.</p> <p>However, there will always be infinite demand for making our lives better.<br /> Thus, even after our basic needs(food, house, sleep, &#8230;) are automated, there'll still be economy for billions of people on this planet alone.</p> <p>What's wrong with receiving basic income which enables people to refuse traditional crappy corporate jobs and work &quot;only&quot; on interesting things in their lives(Art, Science, etc)? Humans aren't born to work in subordinate jobs in the first place.</p> <p>Another possibility is that, eventually, there will be no need to work at all, and economies will collapse. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture</a> describes this possibility.</p> 
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